10422. Is there any big chapel of the Calvinistic Methodists there? - There is a chapel at Blaenclydach and another at Llwynypia of the Welsh.

10423. Is one a considerable chapel with a good number of members? - Yes.

10424. Give me a sort of notion as to the size of it? - The chapel seats 600 people.

10425. The Commission were anxious that a minister of this denomination from the Rhondda Valley should come here and give us information about his own district. Do you know why he did not come? - I do not know that our minister has been requested to come.

10426. Why did they, when we wanted a minister, send you, who are not a minister? I do not say that there was not a very good reason; I only want to know what it was? - I was personally approached as one of the Rhondda witnesses some weeks ago to tender evidence before the Commission.

10429. Had you any idea that coming in that way as a layman you could give more general evidence? - I had no idea at all. I was simply asked by the representatives of the Nonconformist bodies of the Rhondda to volunteer to compile what I thought might interest and benefit this Commission, and attend here to tender it.

10431. Now we will take your proof. You begin with a general description of this particular district? - Yes.

10440.You are now going to deal with Ward 5? - Presently. The next paragraph deals with Ward 5, and from there to the end, almost.

10443. ........you give Ward 5 and you divide it into three columns. First you give your own chapel, Bethania, Welsh Calvinistic Methodist, and then you mention the other Nonconformist chapels, Jerusalem Welsh Baptist and Llwynypia Primitive Methodist. The you mention the vestries, and then you have a third column in which yoiu say 'nil' as regards the Established Church. Then you go on with those; that is the number at the end of 1876? - That was the condition of things at the end of 1876.

10444. What have you collected that from? - From actual knowledge of the district on that date; I became a resident of Mid-Rhondda in that year.

10445. Then you know those were the churches and chapels? - Yes.

10446. Now we take the end of 1906; you have in your first column again the names of the chapels of the different denominations-Congregational Baptist, Calvinistic Methodist. Wesleyan, Primitive Methodist and Unitarian. I see you include Unitarian under this list of Nonconformist chapels. Is that right? - I have put it in; I did not know where else to put it.

10447. The one place where else to put it is to leave it out? - I notice here, which I had not noticed before, in this corrected proof it is put in the English Column whereas it ought to be in the Welsh.

10448. ........That 102 may be transferred to the Welsh? - Yes.

[None of these tables were reproduced in the evidence. Yet I cannot help notice a striking similarity to the nature of the evidence with that of Mr W. E. Thomas.]

10450. I see in the original proof the columns are a little different. First you have got 'Denominstion,' and then, 'Name of chapel,' and then you have got seating, Welsh and English, and then 'Vestries, etc.'? - Yes.

10451. Then you have got a column which is called 'Communicants-Welsh and English.' You have added that column? - Yes.

10452. I suppose as to some of the Nonconformist chapels, you were unable to get the figures, and therefore did not put them in? - As regards the Wesleyans and Primitive Methodists, I think they are made up in districts and I could not disect them.

10453. And as regards the Unitarians? - I could not get that in any report.

10457. You set out here these figures. I do not know that I need ask you them in detail; it does not seem worth while. I only ask you generally, where did you get your figures in respect to seating for the Welsh Congregational chapel? - From page 419 of the Congregational Year Book, 1906.

10458. I have got it here in the Year Book: 'Llwynypia, founded 1876; seating accommodation'; that, I suppose, you personally know nothing about? - It is a chapel I have been in a good many times. I have not measured the chapel.

10460. Then 'Church members'; where do you get that from? - From the same, from the Year Book.

10461. 'Number of scholars,' in the same way, I suppose? - That is simply accommodation; that is measured by myself.

10462. The heading of the column is a little inaccurate, if it was only measured by yourself, because it is 'number of scholars on the books'? - I do not say anything as to that in my proof.

10463. If the heading of the column is 'On the books' you cannot get any assistance from that column because yours is mere measurement? - Yes.

10464. How did you measure the accommodation? - The floor area, and allocating in the main schoolroom four square feet per child, and in the class rooms five.

10465. Then teachers you do not say anything about? - No.

10466. Then vestries in the same district, the same chapels, you have a column for.That does not say so, but I suppose it means sittings? - Accommodation for 354.

10467. It does not say so in your paper which you have given now, but that is what you say it means? - Yes, that is what I intend.

10468. Where do you get that from? - By measurement.

10469. Then you cannot tell us anything personally about the average attendance? - At that chapel I cannot.

10470. I think it is a great pity that you should include in your proof these other chapels which you know nothing about. We get much more information from the Year Book than even from you. Now Soar, Clydach Vale, Welsh speaking; do you know anything about that? - Yes, that is by measurment.

10471. Did you measure it? - Yes, I was the architect of the enlargement in 1905

10472. Very well; will you give us your figures? - 710.

10473. Your figures do not agree with the Year Book? -The Year Book is for the previous year, and my figures are at the end of 1906,as you will see at the head of the table.

10474. Your figures are got by measurement? - Yes, but in the meantime the enlargement had been completed between the return and my measurement.

10475. The figures in the Year Book for 1906 are 700 for Saron and 550 for Soar? - The 1906 Year Book contains the returns for 1905, I understand.

10476. That we understand, but is it in both Soar and Saron, your simple measurement? - No, there has been to my knowledge no alteration of Saron since the end of 1905, and I take the Year Book figure.

10477. The one agreed with the Year Book and the other is 710. Now tell us how you get the difference between 550 and 710.? - The actual accommodation between the old and the new building.

10478. What is the enlargement? - 160 sittings.

10479. Were you the architect? - I was.

10480. Then you are able to speak to that; you added 160 to 550? - Yes.

10481. The next is Gosen, Blaenclydach; where do you get the 600 from there? - The Year Book.

10482. Do you know anything about that yourself? - I was the architect of the original building.

[It is becoming a little clearer in my mind why this witness was selected, despite the standing instructions. His professional standing and first-hand knowledge was designed to add weight to the quantification of the accommodation question. It is seen that 550 remained for Soar in the 1907 Year Book. I do not have the 1908 figure but the1909 Year Book shows the accommodation at 800?. The comment 'since the end of' goes some way to indicate that any enlargement to Saron (1,000 from 700) happened during 1905.]