10483. ......Then Baptist; do you know anything about this of your own knowledge? - I have carried out the additions and alterations to the Calfaria Baptist Chapel as well, and Calfaria, Jerusalem and Bethany I have designed.

10484. All these figures which you know of your own knowledge? - Jerusalem, that I know; I designed that chapel.

10485. You measured that for something? - I measured it originally. My figures are taken for the accommodation, and I find it appears in the Year Book.

10486. Which other one of these four? - I designed Bethany.

10487. We will come to the English in a moment. Are there any others in the Welsh column? - I did not design the original chapel at Calfaria, but I have carried out additions and alterations.

10488. Are you able of your own knowledge to speak of the figure there? - I have taken the figure from the Year Book; but I believe it is a correct one, knowing the chapel as I do.

10489. What do you say as to Noddfa? - I say the same.

10490. You have done nothing there? - I have carried out minor repairs from time to time. The chapel is next door to my house and I know it well.

10491. You think that is right? - Yes.

10492. Now come to your own, the Calvinistic Methodist; you speak of those of your own knowledge; is that right? 'Libanus, Blaenclydach, 600; Bethania, Llwynypia, 550; Penuel, Pontrhondda, 300'? - Yes.

10493. 'Wesleyans'; what do you know about the seating accommodation there? - I have carried out alterations to the Wesleyan chapel, and the figure there is my own measurement, 237.

10494. Now as to the English; what do you say as to those-the Llwynypia Congregational? - Yes, the number is taken from the year book, 400.

10495. You know nothing about it yourself? - I have been in the chapel, but I have not measured it.

10496. Is Bethany the same? - I have measured Bethany.

10497. What is that? - 350.

10498. Then the Wesleyans, Mount Zion, Blaenclydach? - 289.

10499. Do you take it from the Year Book, or measurement? - Measurement, the chapel and vestry.

10500. Then Llwynypia, 266? - Yes.

10501. You have measured them both? - I measured the whole three, Tabernacle, Mount Zion, and Llwynypia.

10502. Then Primitive Methodists; there are three English? - I have measured the three; Cwmclydach, 150; Wain Court, 250; Llwynypia, 354.

10503. What is Unitarian? - 102.

10504. Did you measure that? - I did.

10505. Judging from this list, the Wesleyans both original and secessionist, if that is the right word to use, the Primitive Methodists, have served the English much more than the Welsh? - Except one church within my ward, the Wesleyans are all English causes; there are two English causes and one Welsh.

10506. But taking the amount of seating, the accommodation provided by the Wesleyans is in the main provided, though not entirely, at the English chapels; there is only one Welsh chapel? - That is so.

10507. I do not suppose you can tell us of your own knowledge anything about the number of communicants? - The same difficulty arises here. I could not get it for separate churches; I could only get it for districts.

10508. I cannot check what you get for districts by the Year Book, or by any document whatsoever which is issued in the ordinary course of the administration of any church. It is only that you tell me you have heard it; you do not know it of your own knowledge? - I do not presume to give it.

10509. So I think we may leave that column out. do not know whether I clearly understood your meaning. What I mean is this: If there are figures, even though not in your own chapel, or your own denomination,as to which we can test the figures that you give, well and good. we should like to receive it from you. These communicants you nothing about at all, and the information you have got is information we have got in the Year Book? - From the Year Book, except with that regard to Libanus, Blaenclydach, 348, Calvinistic Methodist.

10510. You cannot assist us as to that; we are where we were before you came. You have looked at the Year Book, and we could do the same? - That is so.

10511. So we will not trouble you as to that. Then as to the Church, you give us the Established Church, and say St. Andrew's, Llwynypia, is 700, and St. Thomas's, Blaenclydach, 450? - 450.

10511. Those two figures make 1,150? - Yes.

10513. You compare that with the 3,302? - I do not make any comparison; I simply give the statement.

[It is fairly clear that the witness would have heard the earlier evidence. And given the similarities with his presentation to that, he was surely anticipating that question.]

10514. I thought they were put in this juxtaposition by you for the express purpose that they should be compared, but if not I will not trouble you on the subject, and I am glad to hear it. What do you say is the population? These columns cover the whole of the district? - The whole of the area of Ward No. 5.

10516. (Sir John Williams) You are dealing with the population of the ward only? - Yes.

10517. The population is 12,841? - Yes.

10518. (Chairman) What do you mean by the total provision for the seating of all the denominations? - In chapels and churches, 10,058.

[Since we now have another angle on the accommodation question, I present my own table which compares these latest figures to those that are given elsewhere in the overall evidence. However, on the quoted figures, the total, as given, is not correct. I have attributed the difference, 650, to Salem, which although discussed, was not quoted, which concurs with the Year Book]