9948. I see you begin your proof with a statement that the first Congregational chapel within the area that is now included in the district of the Rhondda Urban Authority was built at Cymmer in the year 1743? - Yes.

9949. That is a matter of common knowledge. You do not remember that building? - No, I do not.

[Would anyone?]

9950. Cymmer was then, however, in the parish of Llantrisant, and consequently Bodringallt was the first Congregational chapel to be built in the parish of Ystradyfodwg. Then you say, 'In 1855 mining operations were commenced at Ystrad and services began in a wooden shed.' There are some facts about securing a Congregational minister, but we need not trouble, I think, about these matters of history until one gets a little further down, and then I find the Bodringallt Church was constituted and a dewlling house was secured for the services. Then you say it was decided to build a chapel, and that the foundation was laid in 1861? - Yes.

9951. Then you say, 'Inspite of the fact that nearly all the men interested were out of work for eight months, in consequence of a stoppage at the colliery, the building was proceeded with and opened in May, 1862.' Then you mention the seating accommodation. That appears, I suppose, the Congregational Year Book? - No, I am afraid that part is historical.

9952. I know it is historical, but the church still exists? - But the accommodation is much higher now.

9953. You mean that was the first seating accommodation? - Yes.

[According to 'Hanes Eglwysi Annibynnol Cymru' (History of the Welsh Independent Churches), the original number of sittings was 450.]

9958. You make some complimentary observations, which, I dare say, are very just, but I do not think they have anything to do with what we have to consider; and then in 1878 the chapel was rebuilt to accommodate 750. Shall I get that figure in the Year Book? - No, the one you will get in the Year Book will be still larger.

9959. But shall I get a figure? - You will get a figure there.

9960. It confirms you in the statement that there is atleast accommodation for 750? - Quite so.

9961. Then I see, 'Vestry to seat 250 for week night and Sunday school services.' Where do you get that accommodation from? - I am prepared to prove that the vestry is larger; I measured it.

9962. If you can say, what did you allow in the vestry-what amount of space perperson? - 18 inches.

9963. Then you go on: 'the total cost being,' and you give the figure of the cost. Where shall I find that? - The secretary is here; I have the secretaries of the three churches, and they will proove the figures.

9964. Have they got their books and vouchers? - Yes, he has.

9965. Have you looked at them yourself? - Yes, I have. This is the balance-sheet at the time. (Balance-sheet handed to Chairman.)

9966. I see that on the receipt side of this balance-sheet it appears that some of the capital was raised to pay for this building of the new chapel was borrowed capital? -

9967. Are the names opposite the sums borrowed the names of the lenders or the names of somebody from who it was borrowed? - The names of the lenders.

9968. The lenders seem to be John Evans £100, Williams Johns £100, John Phillips £1,000, John Thomas £120, Benjamin Williams £300, W. R. Edwards £100, making a capital of £1,820. Were these gentlemen employers or neighbours, or what were they? - Neighbours, largely. One name there is acontractor in a neighbouring district. He lent £1,000.

9971. Then there is a collection at the opening of the chapel £71 15s. 6d., and the children's collecting cards. I do not think I need go through all this. The one fact that I think you would like to have elicited, is this, that the chapel was to a considerable extent built by small subscriptions or chapel collections? - That was so.

9972. You think it is right that the fact shall appear in evidence because it shows that the Congregationalist church was welcome in the Rhondda? - Yes.

9976. 'In 1896 the chapel was again enlarged, additional vestry rooms were added, and an organ put in........'

9979. I am looking for the moment at the Year Book and I am comparing it with the evidence that you have just been giving. I see that the foundation of the church and the number of sittings are given in the first column. The foundation of the church is put as 1859; that means the foundation as a cause? - As a cause.

[Now if this date is correct, in conflict with the other source that quotes 1855, Carmel(1857) in Treherbert was an earlier cause.]

10000. Will you tell me now from what do you take the seating accommodation proved up to the present point? We have got here in 1878 that the chapel was rebuilt to accommodate 750, with a vestry to seat 250. Is that the way the 900 is made up in the Year Book? - No, in 1896 the chapel was again enlarged, and now accommodated 900 independant of the vestry.

10001. We have not come to that yet? - We have passed it.......

10002. 'In 1896 the chapel was again enlarged and additional vestry rooms were added.' There is nothing about increased accommodation there? - The sentence, 'the chapel was again enlarged,' is meant to cover that.

10003. But it does not tell me the quantum of enlargement? - Later on you will find it is 900.

10004. Give me that now? - The chapel was again enlarged to accommodate 900. You will find that on page 5. It is 910 there, but it ought to be 900.

10005. What I wanted to know is, how do you arrive at that figure. Did you measure the accommodation? - Not the chapel; I measured with the architect the vestry accommodation.

10006. I want to know who is responsible for vouching the 900? - The architect who built the chapel.

10007. You are not the architect? - No, but I understood that would be accepted from the Year Books.

10008. I quite agree that we are to take the Year Books as prime facie evidence on all these matters, not only the Year Books, but every report or account which is rendered by the chapel ministers or the chapel secretaries to their congregation, in the ordinary course of their annual work. That is always accepted as prime facie evidence, but when we come to deal with particular places one then asks a question to verify, as far as we can, the particular figure. The book will go in generally as a Year Book, or any other accounts that are put in will go in generally as being evidence, but when we come to the evidence as to the particular places our practice has always been to get a little direct evidence up to the point? - I am afraid I cannot produce any direct evidence beyond the fact that it was enlarged to accommodate 900.

10009. There must have been a contract. The architect must have done something. Was not anything done, or did you take your chance of how many additional seats you were going to have? - A general custom is to give the architect instructions to build a chapel to accommodate so many, and we leave it to him.

10010. Then I daresay presently you will be able to show me some instructions to the architect or something of that sort? - I will try.